Heather “Lucky” Penney: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Aerospace Advantage Podcast, brought to you by PenFed. I’m your host, Heather “Lucky” Penney. Here on the Aerospace Advantage, we speak with leaders in the DOD, industry, and other subject matter experts to explore the intersection of strategy, operational concepts, technology and policy when it comes to air and space power.

France is America’s oldest ally, and we’ve been through a lot together. From the American Revolution over 250 years ago, two World Wars, and ongoing military operations around the globe. Our two nations have stood side by side when it mattered the most, and this connection endures. These days, it’s more important than ever considering China’s rise, Russia’s aggression in Europe, and other elements of instability we see around the globe.

A key component of the security relationship depends on robust aerospace power. Modern military operations simply do not work without mastering these domains, and our adversaries know this, and that’s why they’re working hard to challenge us in these realms. To better understand these [00:01:00] dynamics. It’s my honor to welcome Brigadier General Nicholas Chambaz, the leader charged with overseeing international relations for the French Air and Space Force headquarters.

He’s a career pilot with over 4,000 flight hours under his belt, including 50 combat operations. In particular, we’re looking forward to discussing the French Air and Space force’s latest Strategic Vision: The Sky as a Battlefield. Sir, welcome.

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Good morning Lucky and good morning Slider. It’s a real honor and pleasure to be your guest today. I would like to stress immediately on your kind words about our friendship, which goes back to the very creation of the US. Next year in 2026, you will celebrate 250 years of independence. It is an historical fact that France is America’s oldest ally. Thanks to Marqui de Lafayette and many others who played a key role in this.

But 1776 was only the beginning of a common and enduring friendship. Indeed we, the French people we know and remember that young Americans who could have stayed quietly at [00:02:00] home came to join the Lafayette flight in 1916, changing the course of World War I. We know and remember that 25 years later, the US saved us from the Nazi regime during World War II.

In short, we know and remember that we are all and will remain brothers in arms on the ground, at sea, and in the air forever.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): Yeah, General, that’s a tremendous introduction to what we’re gonna talk about today, and it reminds me of the wonderful celebration we had last night at the French Embassy celebrating air power, celebrating airmen. It’s an absolute pleasure to be here with you today.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: And Slider, you’ve got a lot of NATO experience underneath your belt as well with a NATO command tour. So, that’s one reason why I wanted to make sure that we had your experience here on this podcast.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): Yeah. And I’m really excited to share those perspectives

Heather “Lucky” Penney: Hey, speaking of, did you know that the very first aircraft in the United States was actually a Newport 28, a French aircraft?

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): I had no idea.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: Yeah. So our, our history is entangled and [00:03:00] entwined in a very positive way. So again, just another shout out to how closely related our two forces and nations are. So General Chambaz, we speak about the security environment through the US lens all the time, right? But would you mind walking us through the world from your perspective, from the French lens? I’m sure it looks fairly different to your nation, your interests, but, there’s gotta be some similarities as well.

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Yes, of course. And there are many, many similarities, and I will maybe go a bit deep into that, even if we’re just starting. But it’s indeed obvious that the geopolitical environment is changing very quickly and that our common adversaries and competitors are taking not only hard lines, but also violent actions.

And it is very important in our view for Americans to understand, and I know you do how we feel today in Europe. So I wanna share this with you. The Russian aggression on Ukraine, bringing back World War I type war on our soil in Europe is still a real shock for us. I say that [00:04:00] because thanks to the US presence, and of course other factors, France and Europe have been used to enjoying a very long period of peace and prosperity for decades.

And this is now at stake. I say that because it is normal that Americans due to geography can sometimes feel more distance to what we in Europe are experiencing right now. But imagine just for a second how you would feel if an unfriendly regime or indeed, because I know it rings a bell for you.

Narco groups, in the the Caribbeans or in Central America, would start a military campaign to take by force a part of Mexico that they would pretend belonged to them for whatever reason. Imagine that on top of these conventional actions, the regime would be a nuclear power regularly using nuclear rhetoric against Mexico and all the countries that would support your attack neighbor.

Of course, this is a very theoretical comparison, but it is only designed in order to better share how we feel in Europe since 2022, [00:05:00] actually rather since 2014. So, in Europe we look at Russia with very, very cautious eyes, and we don’t trust the Russian regime. It is, I know our view for them to demonstrate their goodwill in the ongoing discussions on getting closer to a ceasefire and of course a piece that everyone would welcome.

So of course. And let me continue. I’m sorry to be a bit long, but I think it’s important to.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: Yeah, no, we appreciate that perspective ’cause it’s important for us to be able to put ourselves into your shoes.

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Yeah. So to continue Russia is and remains for us the number one threat. It would be quite easy actually for Russia to change its image in European eyes, even though so much damage has been done already. It would for sure in our view need to just stop their war of aggression to come at the negotiation table in good faith. They would need to take into account the fact that Ukrainians have demonstrated on the ground, at sea, and in the air during the last three years that they want to keep their freedom.

A country with only a third or a [00:06:00] fourth of Russia’s population is resisting. Proving every day that they just don’t want to become neither Russians nor a part of Russia. They’re proving every day that Vladimir Putin’s vision is contradicted by the facts. Indeed, you can never resist that long to such a powerful power if you do not have a real will to do so. In Ukraine, there are now dead, missing, or wounded soldiers in almost every family. So, the fact that they are continuing to resist proves that they deserve our support in our view, with our European eyes, of course. But Ukraine is only one aspect and a lot I would like to also to focus now more on general remarks, which include our aspects, because we’re here for that.

If you allow me, maybe we could focus on five lessons learned. The resurgence of the nuclear factor in the strategic grammar, russian rhetoric, the speed at which China is strengthening its arsenal, the will of other actors to get or at least come closer to the bomb, are key factors.

[00:07:00] It increases the risks of accidental use, proliferation and circumvention of safeguards. We should see these situations as they are and bring back those we could call the nuclear grownups, I mean the P five to continue rather resume discussions on these absolutely essential topics. We need to rebuild an overall security architecture in Europe and globally.

That is the, that it is the only way forward for peace and stability in the midterm. That was the first point. The second point is in the conventional domain, the existence of threats across the altitude continuum. Hostile actions are expanding into higher altitude, including very high altitude and space, requiring a comprehensive defense strategy across all levels.

This is a key point of the strategy of General Jérôme Bellanger our new, chief of staff of the Air force. The easy access to technology is the third point. States, as well as non-state actors are gaining access to advanced weapons, such as drones and missiles, [00:08:00] challenging traditional power dynamics and requiring new defense approaches.

Fourth, the progress made by our opponents on anti-access area denial systems. These are graded systems are making it harder for us to accept and maneuver in certain failures of operation and oblige us to develop more agile weapons and or countermeasure. And finally, ethical and operational challenges linked to the use of AI.

The development of combat AI resists ethical concerns and requires careful consideration of its impact on decision making and military effectiveness. I’m gonna stop here for now, but I would like to expand after that to a more geographical approach if you allow me.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: No, I really appreciate that because what you just, articulated those five challenges. We also here in the United States, face as well and are grappling with regarding how we change our operations, how we do our campaign planning, as well as the technology and the tactics, techniques, and [00:09:00] procedures of how we operate to be able to address the challenges everywhere from how, nuclear proliferation is impacting the deterrence game. As well as our willingness to use conventional technologies. All the way down through access and artificial intelligence and machine learning and how that’s impacting our weapon systems as well as how humans and machines will end up teaming together.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): I think it’s really important that as we continue these conversations, we be as inclusive as possible, bringing in different cultural perspectives, different national security perspectives from around the world. Because these are such complex issues, we’ve gotta bring in, these different perspectives.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: And just like during the revolution, we will be fighting together.

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Exactly. Exactly. And so let’s maybe now move on to a more geographical approach. So I’ve already mentioned, Ukraine and Russia and the war on the European soil, so I will not come back to that, but just one more remark may be to focus on the air domain. Our assessment is that neither Russia nor Ukraine have been able to gain and preserve our [00:10:00] superiority in this conflict. It is paramount to assess this because we believe that if one of them had been able to do that, the conflict would probably be looking very different. Let’s move to the Middle East. The military balance is rapidly changing there as well. As an officer, I do not want to go into politics and it is not my role.

But from a purely military perspective, we can observe the efficiency of the air domain with strategic consequences in the region. Israel air power security is fundamental for its security. Steep precision strikes provides Tel Aviv with the opportunities to stun its enemies, in particular Iran. But we have to witness that ballistic massage attacks from Iran’s stroke Israel.

Israel too, not too badly thanks to God, in particularly thanks to the Iron Dome, but the threat remains. They could strike Europe, I mean Iran, of course, or European interest too, and US interest as well. So we have to take this very [00:11:00] seriously together. In short, we have to keep state-of-the-art, deep precision strikes capabilities, and at the same times, improve and scale up our resilience on the defensive side Iron Dome or similar types of assets. I would like to cover other parts of the region and maybe you, would wish to react to that first.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: Well, and again, lot of the challenges that you’re facing and coming to terms with are very similar to the issues that United States Air Force is dealing with as well.

The need to be able to penetrate into contested, environments as well as to develop basing resilience, whether or not that’s the first or the second island chain, or our own efforts to implement a Golden Dome, missile defense over the entire United States, as well as layer defenses and cyber defenses is something that we have to deal with as well.

So we, we find ourselves in very similar situations despite some of the geographical differences. Now, Houston, you lived and worked in the NATO environment. What takeaways did you have at the end of your [00:12:00] command tour that you didn’t have on the front end? What are some of the key elements you think are especially important for us defense practitioners to understand?

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): I’ll make a couple comments on that. Thanks so much, Lucky. Number one, I was so impressed with the professionalism of the airmen that were under my command from 24 different countries while I was at NATO. When you’re flying a single engine aircraft at 60,000 feet, 15 to 20 miles from the Russian border, it takes very close attention to detail, both maintenance and operations, to make sure that those operations are effective. And those 24 countries, made it happen every single day.

Number two, air power is expensive. And so we take that for granted in the United States with very large military budget. But some of these other countries have, they just have much smaller economies. And so when you go to purchase a large weapon system, there are some significant challenges overcoming some of those costs. But the countries within NATO have come up with ways to overcome these costs of these large weapon systems over the years. Number [00:13:00] one, NATO acquired AWACs, NATO acquired the RQ 4. Then they also came up with this other, agreement called the Heavy Airlift Wing in Papa Hungary, where it was not an official NATO acquisition.

But a group of 12 countries came together, purchased three C 17 aircraft, shared the costs, shared the operations, and those C 17s are still doing strategic airlift on behalf of those countries in and around Europe.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: What’s amazing to me is not only the European Defense Fund and how they’re also, making this happen, but also I think we cannot underestimate the importance from an industrial based perspective of how Europe also has, their own development for aircraft.

Whether or not that’s, the Eurofighter, the Typhoon, the Rafale, there are options out there and also how they partner with the US for US defense systems to ensure that we have integration and interoperability regardless of whether or not that’s a US platform or European platform. So the professionalism that you speak about is an integration advantage that we [00:14:00] have over our adversaries. Even though we’ve seen China and Russia operate together, it’s really more about deconfliction rather than integration. Now, we can’t take, that for granted. We know that their ambitions are to integrate in the future, but even within the PLA itself, its ability to integrate their operations across their domains is still really more about deconfliction. It’s not the same level that we have with our European allies.

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Fully agree with you, Lucky on that. Our assessment is indeed very similar. The level of integration that we have already reached has to be maintained, all costs. But we are ahead and we will remain ahead. And your remarks on industry, I think now is a moment where there’s no longer a need to choose between, US and or European industry. We actually need both because we need mass. The most important is to keep this interoperability factor indeed. But, we need to produce better and more and [00:15:00] cheaper. So, there is room for all of us, and that’s the main message that France is trying to convey, both in Brussels and here in DC. There is no way out of this, we have to produce better, more in Europe, in the US to face our opponents. That’s the message.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: I completely agree. And I think another important element of the European industrial base is that you’re able to look at the gaps that the US has within our operations and then fill in those gaps. And that’s a lot, for example, what Slider was talking about regarding, the heavy air lift is within the European continent. You’re looking at what each nation brings to the fight, and you’re filling that in a collaborative way across other nations capabilities.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): Yeah. I’ll, I’ll quickly jump in there. A lot of people don’t realize the RQ 4, that NATO flies, it looks like an RQ 4 that you would see up at Grand Forks that the United States Air Force flies. But when you look underneath, underneath the hood, when you look under the hood exactly. It’s [00:16:00] actually all the computers have been completely redesigned and the software redesigned, and that’s done by European contractor.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: Amazing. It’s great that they bring that kind of capability, to the fight. And also an important piece is that even though it looks, smells, and tastes like an RQ 4, that creates some uncertainty for the adversary because they might not necessarily know or be able to anticipate and therefore counter the capabilities that aircraft then brings to the site.

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Absolutely.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): Okay. Lucky. Let’s shift just a little bit, General Chambaz, as we look at the evolving security picture and an evolving NATO, let’s talk about your services, new air and space for strategic vision. What’s the purpose of the document and how’s it gonna compare to, similar historic documents?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Yes, of course. So, in an unstable security context, a changing geopolitical environment, and in the face of accelerated evolution driven by innovation, airmen need a stable compass to negate through turbulence. This compass is given to us by the vision of our Chief of Staff of the Air and [00:17:00] Space Force because in France we are air and space force together to guide our transformation, but also to reassure our fellow citizens and political authorities of our ability to fulfill our missions today and tomorrow.

This vision outlines three priority areas for modernizing the air and space forces and preparing for high intensity conflict. Firstly, focusing on training and operational readiness. Secondly, accelerating the modernization of capabilities by combining mass and high technology. And finally, valuing airmen and women as they will ultimately make the difference.

Every action taken must be carried out considering those three principles that underpin the identity of the aviator. Agility to constantly adapt, a pioneering spirit to innovate and manage risks, and an open mind for joint and allied operation. For the first time among the last strategic visions, this one strengthens the idea of a [00:18:00] continuum between air and space, mentioning the very high altitude trench between 20 and a hundred kilometers or higher altitude operation.

So for us, this is something new that we want to share with our friends and allies and in particular the US of course. And maybe I will develop a bit more later on that.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: So sir, I’ve looked at The Sky as a Battlefield as your strategic document and I think it’s most excellent. It references also the capability modernization, and this is, number two, right? Modernization and, mass and, technology. So we understand that imperative in a big way through the lens of the US A ir Force and Space Force. So could you describe your services, biggest priorities, in this zone for recapitalization and modernization?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Yes, of course. The Air and Space Force sized over the last two decades on an expeditionary model to project power far from our territory against predominantly terrorist threats. It must now urgently be transformed and we should relearn [00:19:00] major high intensity engagement as even our national territory is exposed to direct threats on our soil. The urgency is to gain coherence and lethality. We should maintain and enhance the capability of first entry into an A2/AD defended zone and space.

Reconsider ammunition stocks, of course, to make them higher and strong attritions in our formats. Dematerialize our operational contracts, which means between conventional and nuclear, and also the protection and defense of our air bases should be reinforced urgently by integrated air and missile defense systems.

Finally, we have to fully exploit the potentials of space, very high altitude and airspace as a continuum again, to unlock synergies and gain overall efficiency of aerospace power. Concretely and without exhaust space through VHA, robotization with drones, electromagnetic spectrum mastering notably [00:20:00] SEAD missions, digitization of processes to speed up decision making cycles, combat maintenance, including higher risk appetite.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: It sounds like we’ve got a lot of shared priorities. And by the way, for our listeners, we’ll include a link to that document. The Sky as a Battlefield in our show notes.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): Fantastic. And general, I wanna dig into what you were talking about for modernization, because you talked about some individual capabilities, but our air force has been looking a lot at not only individual capabilities, planes, missiles, satellites, those are really important, but we gotta look at the enterprise effects.

We gotta look at how do you combine the parts? And so can you talk to us a little bit, how are you all doing that? Whether it’s training, processing, power, connectivity. How are you working enterprise effects in your force?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Indeed, the Air and Space Force has always operated according to modes of action, combining several environments. Airborne operations with the Army, support for land or naval [00:21:00] forces, and providing support for military operations from space. The difference now is that it is necessary to integrate more multi-domain effects to gain a temporary bubble of superiority in a highly contested space. In France, we call it M2MC, multi-domain, multi field. The equivalent for the UK is multi-domain integration, MDI. MDO for NATO allies or joint all domain operations doctrine here in the us.

But we’re dealing with the same things.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: Oh, It’s all the same, right? Just different names.

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Exactly. But due to its DNA, the air and Space Force is certainly the most experienced for integrating the effects of other domains. The OODA loop and our targeting process are assets that the other armies do not have, or at least do not have with the same maturity. So the French errand Space Force mainly in charge of first entry must coordinate its actions with other services in particular compatible C2 processes and networks. But again, this is something that is for long in [00:22:00] our DNA. We are fully aware that C2 is a strategic core of any military domain for a while now.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: This multi-domain operations or joint all domain, I mean really this is a system of systems or family of systems approach. And sir, as you mentioned, we’ve been doing that for a long time. It is within our DNA no matter what, Western Air Force you are in. But a key component of making that successful is the training and the readiness that you mentioned as your pillar one, prepare for and win the aerospace fight. Could you please describe more about what this means?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Yes, we should indeed improve our readiness. And, this implies that we need to modernize the way we train and fight. And we are very confident that we are on the right track in order to make good progress on this. First we need to assert aerospace military and we will need to reinforce capabilities and resilience of our air bases, our combat tools. So we train much more regularly and with scenarios that include events that previously we would not even think about it. So the best way to make people [00:23:00] realize what can happen to them.

Second, we need to modernize, simplify, innovate, and operationalize perspective functions. And we are making a strong effort on this even at HQ level. Next we need to ramp up interoperability and partnership, and that’s the way we continue to train for that within NATO frameworks or in ADOC frameworks. And as I said before we need to develop M2MC capabilities and that’s, what we are doing.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): As you continue to modernize work on your training, focus on interoperability. An important piece of this is gonna be direct support to the NATO mission. Are there particular examples that you can provide us that might help illustrate this?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Sure. Although they are far from matching what the US Air Force can provide, the French Air and Space Force is the already very, very well equipped in European standards. The triptych, Rafale, MRTT, and A 400 M is particularly effective. We can also give the example of the SAMT and [00:24:00] the vertical launch MICA, which air defense system that least as efficient as the US, Chinese, or Russian equivalents.

And our C2 allows us to be able to make the role of framework nation of an adult coalition. Our airmen and women have the reputation for being ready to lead, and I confirm that they carry out their mission every day with efficiency, determination, and professionalism. Of course, we have to look ourselves in the mirror and what we are still lacking of is mass, but a huge effort is already ongoing with our current military programming law and more is to come. Soon.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: So sir, pivoting just a little bit to the wars in Ukraine and in the Middle East. You had referenced this at the beginning of our conversation, and it’s also within the strategic vision, document the Sky’s a Battlefield, regarding your concerns and how, regarding the lessons learned, that you have from these conflicts and the role that emerging technologies will play. So what has the French and Air and Space Force learned from Ukraine in the Middle East and how are you applying that to your [00:25:00] modernization and your training?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Well, in a context marked by the growing challenge to the international order and the uninhibited use of force, our potential adversaries are challenging our force model. We’re closely analyzing the lessons of the Ukrainian conflict, but especially also those in the Middle East without losing sight of the fact that the next conflict will again be different because war remains a Chameleon according to Clauzewitz. We have already alluded to this, but let me stress again a confirmation it’s the return of nuclear, high intensity conflict, is no longer hypothetical. That’s what we have in our national strategic review. An aerospace power capable of producing strategic effects. The example of Israel raid on Iran, the mastery of the electromatic spectrum is really absolutely paramount. The importance of integrated multilayered air defense.

Again, the lessons from Ukraine and the Middle East. [00:26:00] New structuring dynamics. We used to have close attention to systematic integration of effects. An affirmation of the space segment. On ISR connectivity, advanced warning. That’s absolutely fundamental as well. The use of saturation in offensive maneuvers, the empowerment of effectors onboard AI, drones, and so on.

Acceleration of the kill chain is finally one very, important factor. C2 and effectors, the winner will be the one who will be able to have the better speed on this, loop. Concurrently in Ukraine, we need a first entry and deep precision strike capability. That’s a lesson learned from Ukraine.

And the EU initiative on elza is exactly focused on that. If we don’t win in the air, the trenches war looms. Space based intel is paramount to activate and accelerate the ODA loop I was referring to. Also, our visions are [00:27:00] flying three priorities area for modernizing the air and space forces and preparing for high intensity conflict.

Firstly, focusing on training and operational readiness. Secondly, accelerating the modernization of capabilities by combining mass and high technologies.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: General Chambaz. One of the things that sticks with me is, what you said, if we don’t win in the air, then the trenches will lose. And I think that’s one thing that we here at the Mitchell Institute have said over and over is that the reason why we’ve seen Ukraine devolve into a war of attrition, atrocity World War I style is because neither the Ukrainians nor the Russians were able to establish air superiority and air dominance.

That really just highlights the necessity to be able to create air superiority within the battle space, as well as the need to be able to have precision penetrating effects. For us, that means bombers going deep into bag guy land and denying any adversary sanctuary that allows them to operate, in a way that gives them the initiative.

And we’ve also learned from both Ukraine and the Middle East, [00:28:00] that air bases can be survivable. Although, you see differences between the Ukrainians and the Israelis, how they defend their bases. Neither of them have been stopped from generating mission sorties and generating effects and launching jets even though they’ve been under attack.

And so we apply a lot of those lessons to the Pacific Theater, because we know that, although war world change and the geography is very, very different, that there are some things that we can take as lessons learned.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): Yeah. And so let’s continue that conversation in the Pacific. NATO has termed China a long-term strategic competitor, but China their rise is, in reality, none of our nations can ignore this. How does France define a security interest in this region, and where does aerospace power fit in this equation?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Well, Indo-Pacific is a absolutely key region for France as well. It’s not very well known, but nearly 2% of our French national live in the Indo-Pacific [00:29:00] region. We have actually more than 2 million French people living down there between Lano Island, Nouvelle Caledonia and French Polynesia.

We regularly deploy assets, down there in Exercise Pegasus, that is a yearly exercise, is an occasion to demonstrate our ability to project power and forces up to the Indo Pacific. And it’s been very, very useful to keep that, vital link between our territories, down there and, mainland France.

And the example that I can give is the Nuia crisis that, occurred in May 24, and it reminded, if needed, the importance of air mobility to deploy security forces under very short notice. To mention what you said on China. And of course, China is both, a commercial partner on some occasions, but also very quickly increasing its military capabilities and we witness that very carefully together with you.

We don’t trust China on their ambitions on the, and so we are very cautious, on [00:30:00] what they do. And we want, like the US we want to preserve the freedom of movement at Sea and India in all this area. So we are absolutely committed to that as an Indo-Pacific nations ourself.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): Yeah. One thing you highlighted is China’s focus on building both air power and space power. In 2020, the French Air and Space Force adopted its current name to reflect this evolution and, the operating environment in air and space. How does your strategic vision approach space power?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Well, we’re talking now from now on, on about an aerospace power, not no more air and space. I’m going to give you, a scoop. A new concept for the use of aerospace power is actually being drafted, but it’s not out yet. Space enables intel comms, PNT, all crucial for the M2MC operations and the French Air and Space Force in, in our country in charge. Our caps are being upgraded, via our military programmatic law on the 24 [00:31:00] 30 period with effort on increasing our space situation, awareness on protecting our assets, in space and developing an active defense approach.

And in order to produce between other means. Intel, the Toulouse Airbase 1 0 1 co-located with our civilian Special Studies National Center. The French equivalent of NASA is our first space military base to be open in August. We’ve, already hundreds of personnel and we are ramping up very quickly.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: Sir, I’m heartened to hear how you are focusing more on space as part of the integrated operations for the French Air and Space Forces. But for years, most nations have thought of space as a benign operating domain, but we’re seeing nations like Russia and China challenging this norm because they have demonstrated intent and the means to execute.

For example, just a couple weeks ago, headlines here in the US notice that China was dog fighting in space. Although that’s a little bit of an [00:32:00] exaggeration, it’s an excellent analogy to demonstrate the difficulty with which they’re maneuvering multiple space assets and demonstrating that, capability. So concepts like space superiority represent a major shift for US service members, given that American policy used to prevent mentioning space and war fighting in the same sentence. So how is France, navigating this transition?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Well, France is convinced that space is a global common and that as such it should remain open to peaceful activities for all states. But it is unfortunately necessary to acknowledge what you just mentioned, Lucky, that this conviction is not shared by all. Including signatories of the Outer Space Treaty. French satellites have been the target of all style maneuvers by one of the countries you have mentioned, and we now need to know how to defend ourselves. It is regrettable that these countries do not grasp the apocalypses that a war in the environment could constitute, we have access that could be denied to several future generations [00:33:00] depending on the life span of debris in orbits. They have to be responsible and they are not showing responsibility so far and we are witnessing that and we will be able to give evidence if anything of like that happens.

If space superiority is not a goal we want to reach, our first milestone will be to operationalize our active defense assets. Like you. We are very sensitive to have a passive use of space, but we consider we must be able to react if we are denied or impeach. That’s the reason we have the program as its resilience and actions in space.

We have also lower orbit Sats, Yoda and Toutatis they are being developed and there will be our first national capabilities on this domain. Finally, we are also thinking about early warning capabilities like we call with European partners in the near future.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): That’s [00:34:00] fantastic. I’d like to peel that back just a little bit. We’ve talked space superiority, we’ve talked air superiority, but let’s talk about if the satellites are operating unimpeded hundreds of miles in the air. But if the information that they’re collecting cannot make it down to earth through the electromagnetic spectrum, then what good are those satellites really gonna be to us?

Heather “Lucky” Penney: Exactly. Yeah.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): So tell us what France is doing to remain dominant in spectrum warfare.

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Yeah. France has always envisioned the conducting a high intensity conflict in coalition as this electromatic warfare capability was for us no longer necessary in the fight against terrorism and available through other partners. We neglected it, well, kind of, this was a mistake, even if trade-offs are had to be made. We must regain this capacity as the general directorate of armaments is studying carefully all possibilities to regain it as soon as possible. Jamming and stealth capabilities are absolutely paramount as Middle East [00:35:00] engagements have recently demonstrated.

The future program, FCAS is going to be absolutely paramount for us in this regard. Simultaneously, Frank is thinking to increase mass, in order to create enemy defense saturation, whatever the electromatic environment could be. And that’s basically where we are now.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: So, the electromagnetic spectrum is incredibly important to how we in the US think about layering effects both offensively so that we can penetrate and deliver precision effects, kinetic or non-kinetic against the adversary, but also for protection. So for example, we’re considering using, microwave or laser technology to be able to provide base defense capabilities against, unmanned systems, drones and so forth. So to be a dog with a bone, ’cause I really think that base defense is gonna be crucial because we have to be able to base in the Pacific within the first island change to be able to provide the tempo, mass, and concentration necessary to be [00:36:00] effective, to shape, deter, and if necessary, win.

So, base defense, I see that your strategic vision makes specific reference to maintaining those strong surface to air defenses against manned and unmanned threats. And as I mentioned previously, I think there’s some lessons from Israel and Ukraine that can be quite powerful in this regard.

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Yeah, definitely. Our bases are real combat tools. They were the first to be targeted in Ukraine and are still regularly targeted on both sides of the frontline. Iran has repeatedly targeted the airbase housing the F 35 of Israel. We are teaching our crews to dilute our forces with the French ACE concept regularly, crews leave for foreign airfields on short notice to operate from there. French Air and Space force considers its air base a highly value target to defense since our aircraft default from there to fight at strategic ranges.

The strategic vision underlines therefore, the importance of ground to air defense system, which is a responsibility of [00:37:00] the Air Force in the French system. Therefore, we need to do more and equip our air basis with a multi-layered and integrated air and missile defense, as well as passive and active anti-drone systems.

The SUMT assets for medium range couple with Italy are operated by French airmen in Romania as we speak to defend the Eastern European border within the NATO Air Shield operation. A new version of the Sum T is now under development. Beyond defending our air bases, we must also strengthen their resilience, review their operations with reinforced support and adapt them to face climate change.

We have seen certain meteorological phenomena, damage, air bases, and sustainability affect the aircraft station there. Sometimes even in a worse manner than offensive actions. And finally, just to, answer your, your remark on laser. We have a very, very interesting experience during the Olympics, last year because we have been authorized to, operate with a small power lasers to counter, [00:38:00] small UAVs if required. So, and that was very, productive and efficient. So we are building on that as well.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): As you look at your base operating concepts, I’d like to shift the conversation to agile combat employment. We’ve been looking a lot at the ACE concept in the Pacific, but how is France looking at diversifying operations and harnessing these diverse flight operations?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: The French agile combat employment, we call it moan. It’s the name, of a former aircraft maker. But, it’s very, very similar to what you are experiencing. Of course, maybe we do it at a smaller scale than, the US and so we, we have to accept that. But, we are used to being quite agile, and I have to refer again to what I said before on the triptych, MRTT, Rafale. Aircraft and A400 M so tactical aircraft, and we can deploy, to either, military air fields that have been pre recognized and use several times or even [00:39:00] civilian air fields that we know can, host us whenever required.

And that is absolutely key if we want to, remain resilient and face any type of, operations in action.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): Yeah, one type of aircraft that is very resilient because of its low logistical footprint be the type one and type two, remotely piloted aircraft or drones. And so I’d like to shift the conversation to these remotely piloted aircraft. It brings back fond memories for me, honestly. I was stationed in Afghanistan at Bagram for one year and I remember seeing the French herons on the ramp ’cause I know you guys had a, a very steady footprint there for many years. Um, US Air Force is looking to expand our unmanned aviation into collaborative combat aircraft or CCAs. Looking a lot at man machine teaming. How’s the French Air Force, looking to utilize UAVs for the next fight?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Well, Slider, first we are very satisfied with the MQ 9 and it’s a very, good [00:40:00] materials. As you know, we are using now for more than a decade, and we are also using it at a shooting platform. But in parallel, we develop European assets such as the Euro mal, together with Airbus as an industry, and probably we’ll get the first ones in the end of this decade. With the neuro, France has acquired a firstt of combat drone capabilities. We are capitalizing on the lessons learned to develop the next loyal wigman and remote carriers as well.

Our priority is the ability to strike first and bridge the enemy’s defense, to allow then the Army and the Navy to operate safely right after. With their ability to provide persistence, we will always need drones, we believe, like the MQ 9 and tomorrow EURO Male. However, their vulnerability will allow less engagement in contested airspace.

So we’re looking to gain altitude with assets positioned beyond 20 kilometers altitude. We call them higher airspace operations as previously mentioned. And we have a focus also on keeping always a [00:41:00] man in the loop in order for to take strike decisions. It’s very important in our view.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: So discussions about remotely piloted aircraft and collaborative combat aircraft. That sort of begs the question about data, right? Because that’s how we connect to these aircraft. So I do wanna talk about the interoperability and data, especially when it comes to integrating and exercising with allies. So sir, could you talk to us about how you’re approaching data exchange? This is increasingly crucial to combat operations. Whether things connect is an essential question when it comes to effectiveness to combat operations, especially among the allies. But there are policy issues whether or not that’s, just policy itself or security clearance levels and so forth. How are you approaching, data exchange?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: We adapt NATO operational and standards and procedures, particularly for communication and data exchanges. It is important not to lose sight of what interoperability allows for NATO [00:42:00] forces. To be convinced of this, it suffices to observe the integration of North Korean forces into Russian troops in the Kursk Oblast. It was a complete disaster, and this would never have happened to us because we are used to training to and operating together. We are attached to continue working with our all allies, NATO particularly therefore, interoperability is a key topic that will remain paramount, ensuring the connectivity of our future equipment it’s becoming a concern however. How can we make sure that a Rafale and F 35 aircraft, when you use metal, is not compatible with NATO standards, and we will need to continue to operate together today and tomorrow. Another area is data sharing. Work is underway in a broader circle than NATO to agree on the characteristics of a Federal Mission network to enable data exchange between allies.

This is an ambitious goal, but if we want to succeed together, it is a major step forward that we have to take. Since [00:43:00] 2009 in the return of France to the integrated NATO structure, we have been participating in the light exercises, ensuring participation in enhanced air policing and the role of Framework Nation for the NRF.

The Air and Space Force is naturally well suited to operate in an allied context. We also, and I mentioned this already, regularly practice our Pegasus exercises. What I did not mention yet is that we do them with allies. The UK has also joined us for Griffin Strike for example, and the FCAS nations, Germany and Spain have taken part in Pegasus. Community of materials is when possible an advantage, but in our view it is not a must. It helps the US if Europe is stronger on the strong industrial side as well. We must produce better and more on both side of the Atlantic, thus increasing the strength and the resilience of all our nations.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): That was one aspect of working at NATO ISR force that I was most proud [00:44:00] of, is when you brought all the nations together to collect intelligence, to process intelligence, and then to disseminate intelligence across the alliance. It’s very important to get at exactly what you’re talking about. Which is information exchange to make sure that all the countries have the information they need to make the very difficult national security decisions that were at hand.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: As well as having the tactical level, intelligence, so that you can operate to the strikes, right?

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): Sure.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: So it’s not just about decision making at the administration type level, it’s also about having that at the operational level as well, and that the speed of exchange and therefore the data messages and the standards and so forth can be even more, crucial at that level doing machine to machine.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): Yeah. Lucky. I’m gonna bring the conversation to the strategic level at the very highest, because we haven’t talked about this yet, but it’s so foundational to our security and that is nuclear deterrence. So, is the French Air and Space Force rethinking how it approaches nuclear [00:45:00] deterrence as it takes on a larger role in Europe?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Yes, this is absolutely, uh, fundamental because, we are now in strategic times and, as already mentioned, discussions are now reopened on this topic, since a few weeks. The French doctrine is to protect our vital interest. Whatever the future decisions, this will be maintained as an absolute priority for us. To remain credible the decision will remain in the hands of a single man, that of the president of the French Republic and will therefore not be shared. So, as I said, the President is the only one to decide. French prerogatives are already discussed, and will continue to be discussed with our allies in Europe and beyond. With regard to nuclear, which is the Ultima issue, this is in France prerogative only one person, President Macron at the moment, and so I can only repeat what I heard again and again from his lips.

France is open to a strategic discussion [00:46:00] among Europeans on this topic, and France’s vital interest have, of course, and in any case, a European dimension. A the dimension that General de Gaulle was the first to mention decades ago. And so it means that it is really a living question as we speak. I was, myself, I was lucky to accompany a very recent visit of the NAC ambassadors to East Air Force Base, where we demonstrated the, component, the nuclear command that were, is that being, for more than 60 years now operated by the French Air and Space Force.

And we were very positively surprised by the amount of interest in the question, number of questions that we had from our allies, because, to be honest, in the last three years, President Macron raised that topic several times. But we’ve not as much appetite as what we can witness now. And I will not go into details for the reason why we believe that there is more interest.[00:47:00]

But in any case, what is fundamental here to understand is that the fact that. The US possesses a strategic arsenal. The fact that France possesses a sovereign nuclear arsenal makes it, in any case, much more complicated for our opponents to make their calculus. And it creates a dilemma that is indeed within the doctrine of NATO itself. It’s win-win situation to preserve and even increase these, capabilities both here in the US and for us in France and Europe.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: So sir, what do you see, uh, European collective security look like as we gaze into the future, whether or not that’s the nuclear partnerships that you’re talking about, that, that create dilemmas for adversaries or conventionally so?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Well, first of all, before answering your question, Lucky, I would like to state because it’s very important and people tend to sometimes to forget that. France, like all other allies consider [00:48:00] NATO as the cornerstone of our collective defense. It’s not because we, the French, we have a specific history of the alliance, but we, we should remind our listeners that France was a founding nation of NATO. And we are fully back and it’s now more than 15 years.

And we never left. We only left the military structure. We only, we never left the political level of, and we never left NATO. And we are fully back for a long time now. And for us it’s indeed the cornerstone, including for nuclear aspects. Even if, of course we are not intending to join the NPG, this is not the way we see things or the reason you just gave to remain sovereign and to increase the dilemma for our opponents.

And so, why did I say that? Is because. For collective security, NATO is the cornerstone and France still considers that. And we want, this, to last as long as possible. France just sees itself as a, [00:49:00] security provider, just as, the US and we consider that we are fully committed to Article five. Not only to benefit from it as any ally in the US was the first to benefit from this solidarity of Article five after September 11, but also to provide our allies here in the US if required in Canada, and of course, and indeed in Europe to our neighbors, we consider ourselves as Article five providers. And you can take it conventionally, you can take it if necessary up to the nuclear level. That’s how we see ourselves. It is absolutely key to stress that again and again amongst us.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: NATO is crucial, as you mentioned, sir, it’s a cornerstone of our collective security and the stability, that has created across the globe for the last 70 years.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): Okay. General Chambaz, final thoughts here. It’s been an absolute pleasure being with you this morning, and, we are officially [00:50:00] on short final. Looking into the future, where do you hope to see the French Air and Space Force in say, five, 10 years? And how are you gonna measure this success?

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: Well, I’m confident in the ability of our airmen and women to meet the challenges ahead and to achieve the objectives, of our leaders. I envision an air and space for it that is more lethal, more agile, swift, on the offensive capable of protecting and defending on the defensive and acting with consistency and effectiveness across the entire air very high altitude space continuum. Today and tomorrow, the French aerospace power will always be able to permanently deter any state originating threat to our vital interest by deploying the airborne nuclear component that we indeed have been using for over 60 years now. If and insecure the national airspace and its approaches through the permanent air safety posture, which falls within the scope of the state action in the [00:51:00] air. Enter first, intervene, and support joint maneuvering over time, including from our airbase, mainland and beyond to signal political determination, strike the adversary deep in its territory or fight in the air, perfectly integrated into joint maneuvering. We would like to continue to provide assistance to population and territories hit by catastrophic events either in mainland or again overseas. And indeed to launch a vacation operation like we have done recently in Sudan.

Saving by the way nationals, but also Europeans and I believe in even American citizens from really hell, if you allow me to say that independently. And finally, we want to assess the situation on a permanent basis by using aerial and space sensors on the action or the action, sorry, of special forces contributing to strategic surveillance and anticipation, political and military decision making, as well as the design and conduct of [00:52:00] operations.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: Well, gentlemen, thank you so much. We’re at the end of our time block, but I just wanna say again, thank you, sir, not only for being here, but to your nation for being a our America’s longest and steadiest friend. So thanks again and we will see you here soon.

GBA Nicolas Chambaz: I love that. Many, many thanks for your time and your invitation.

It’s an honor.

Brig Gen Houston “Slider” Cantwell, USAF (Ret.): Yeah, thanks much.

Heather “Lucky” Penney: With that, I’d like to extend a big thank you to our guests for joining in today’s discussion. I’d also like to extend a big thank you to you, our listeners, for your continued support and for tuning into today’s show. If you like what you heard today, don’t forget to hit that like button and follow or subscribe to the Aerospace Advantage.

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Thanks again for joining us and have a great aerospace [00:53:00] power kind of day.